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Bill: Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation
Details
Submitted by[?]: Libertarian Socialists of Endralon
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: December 2177
Description[?]:
| It is utterly obsene that the state or any other employer should have the right to sack working people who have simply exercised their democratic right to take industrial action which they feel is neccessary to guarantee they receive fair pay and can carry out their job in decent conditions. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Employer's rights in regards to firing striking workers.
Old value:: Employers can fire workers who are deemed to have gone on strike without reasonable reasons.
Current: Employers can fire workers who are deemed to have gone on strike without reasonable reasons.
Proposed: Employers cannot fire workers who have gone on strike.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 16:03:41, January 28, 2006 CET | From |  League of Objectivists! | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | Interesting proposal, since EVERY industry in NE is nationalized. Who in the world would strike from the all-knowing all-benevolent despots of this government? We find it extremely ironic that you would give any semblance of misguided control back into the hands of the people. What if one day your own staff decided to strike against, oh say, the psychotic oppressors that dominate this legislative swamp. Wouldn't you want to have some control over the treasonous peons? In principle, employment is a voluntary contract between employer and employee. Both parties have the right to terminate that contract at their own option. This is an unjust proposal. |
| Date | 16:18:22, January 28, 2006 CET | From | Libertarian Socialists of Endralon | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | Just because an industry is nationalised (everything is except farming and fishing) it isn't necessarily run in a progressive way by and for the interests of the working class. It is therefore essential that the people have every possible opportunity to fight against the state and to prevent the centralisation of power in New Endralon. When capitalists talk about a "voluntary contract" they take no account of the fact that the vast majority of people have no choice but to take whatever job they can find and that employers will use this in order to keep their workers weak and unable to defend themselves from oppression. |
| Date | 16:37:52, January 28, 2006 CET | From | League of Objectivists! | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | "It is therefore essential that the people have every possible opportunity to fight against the state and to prevent the centralisation of power in New Endralon." This has to be the most bitterly hypocritical statement we've ever seen. And if it wasn't so painfully sad we would laugh out loud. Also the 'vast majority of people' have all sorts of choices like moving, leeching off your comically unrealistic welfare programs, or even starting their own business! No, wait, you don't let anyone do that. You say it is essential to give the people opportunity yet you treat them like dogs chained to their posts. |
| Date | 20:41:14, January 28, 2006 CET | From | Libertarian Socialists of Endralon | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | Hypocritical? In what way? The people of New Endralon have every opportunity to free themselves of oppression and to have a democratic say over all aspect of their society unlike under the LoO's ideal system where everyone would be the slave of a totalitarian corporation. |
| Date | 20:45:55, January 28, 2006 CET | From | el-militante Party | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | every worker should the right to strike without fear. workers should be able to project how they feel about issues that effect them in the workplace. workers should be able to fight for higher wages, and an equalititic system. we need to get the workers to fight for equalty,a nd give them every opportunity to do so, not scare them away from striking with draconian legislation. |
| Date | 22:59:09, January 28, 2006 CET | From | League of Objectivists! | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | HYPOCRITICAL: adj : professing feelings or virtues one does not have. In New Endralon, people can't fire, can't start a defense or sports or power or media or ANY business, can't work outside of a union, can't choose their own schools, can't claim any ownership to their own inventions or even be allowed to research most inventions, lose up to 9 NED's out of every 10 they make to taxes (ALL of their money if they're in business), can't hunt, can't own any forests, can't let their farms get too successful or fish too much, can't even hope to keep their own property what little of it is not under the gov's oppressive thumb, nor can they even save for thier own retirements! How in the holy hell is this giving the people "every possible opportunity to fight against the state"??!?!?!?! Totalitarian corporations are exactly what New Endralon is made of now!! You cannot escape the logic here. It is a logical contradiction to claim that individuals have the moral and legal right to direct their own lives -- but only as long as they make the decisions that conform to the wishes of the majority of the government. When will you admit that beyond your deluded hippy notions of utopia, you are nothing more than totalitarian despots herding the poor people around like they were cattle!! You are dictators, soverign brutes against whom your victims have no legal recourse. Your ethics are evil and your system is corrupt. It is against this government that the people's freedom needs to be most urgently protected. |
| Date | 00:16:03, January 29, 2006 CET | From | Libertarian Socialists of Endralon | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | You obviously have a very strange idea of freedom but I\'ll go through all the issues you have mentioned. Starting with sacking people I really fail to see what is liberating about being deprived of your job and left with no income to look after you self or your family with just because either the state or some fat cat decides they want to save money or prevent you from fighting for fair pay and working conditions. Moving onto the setting up of businesses in industry the only reason why this is restricted is because it will lead to all decisions over our economy being taken by a wealthy élite. Instead democratic worker\'s councils exist in all our industries and these are independent of both corporations and the state. When it comes to the media anyone is free to set up an independent cooperative which provides far more freedom than under capitalism where the media is dominated by a few corporations which invariably take a far right stance politically. In regards to unions they are compulsory so as to prevent our workers being intimidated by their employers but anyone is still free to set up and join their own union which can follow whatever policies it likes. Choice in education is a euphemism for totalitarian corporate control and what our people really want is the chance to send their children to a good school locally which they can have a say over. People cannot claim ownership over a particular idea because that will deprive others of the democratic right to enjoy the achievements of their society. I am not aware of anything which deprives people of the freedom to do the research they want to about any inventions. High taxation exists for the wealthy in order to prevent the undue centralisation of wealth and power and to provide resources for those who have been oppressed by the capitalist system. Anyone can hunt but it is regulated to prevent too much damage being done to our environment - the same applies to commercial fishing. Farms are not allowed to grow too large as this will create an unequal distribution of land, depriving others of the right to set up their own farm. People do have the right to their own propoerty and if the government needs to take it for any reason they are guaranteed fair compensation and the right to appeal. There is nothing stopping our citizens from saving for their retirement although fortunately this is not necessary as everyone is guaranteed a generous pension. |
| Date | 00:29:14, January 29, 2006 CET | From | II / Newsnight Faction | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | I am quite in favour of "Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation" and that is why I must oppose this bill! ;-) Why are NFC with me on this one?? |
| Date | 01:30:56, January 29, 2006 CET | From | League of Objectivists! | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | "Starting with sacking people I really fail to see what is liberating about being deprived of your job and left with no income to look after you self or your family with just because either the state or some fat cat decides they want to save money or prevent you from fighting for fair pay and working conditions." The right to fire is the right of an employer. Employers are victims of your system. "Moving onto the setting up of businesses in industry the only reason why this is restricted is because it will lead to all decisions over our economy being taken by a wealthy élite." From every mechanic and shopkeeper to writer to artist to inventor? These are your wealthy elite? Do you curse the wealthy elite for creating your planes, your car, your music, your appliances, your home? You should be thanking them for making your life better, and freeing them to do what they do best. When it comes to the media anyone is free to set up an independent cooperative which provides far more freedom than under capitalism where the media is dominated by a few corporations which invariably take a far right stance politically. You're right, stealing isn't a freedom of capitalism, but it is under the NE government who loots the pockets of the working citizens to pay for this 'media'. "In regards to unions they are compulsory so as to prevent our workers being intimidated by their employers but anyone is still free to set up and join their own union which can follow whatever policies it likes." Hey great, so let's set up 60 million one-man compulsive unions. How is that different than deregulating unions? "Choice in education is a euphemism for totalitarian corporate control and what our people really want is the chance to send their children to a good school locally which they can have a say over." First of all, "totalitarian corporation" is a contradiction in terms and doesn't exist, stop saying nonsense. Second, if you're concerned with freedom, what is more free: forcing everyone to go to school based on where they live or letting parents and kids decide the best school available? You said: "Corprations are totalitarian as they inevitably serve to benefit a small wealthy élite who will use every method at their disposal to maximise profits with absolutely no regard for the welfare of the vast majority of the population." --- And just where do all these profits come from? That's right, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION. How much profits do they expect to make if they disregard everyone. The wealthy elite may control a corporation, but who controls the wealthy elite?... It's the consumer, the little guy, the soverign individual. "People cannot claim ownership over a particular idea because that will deprive others of the democratic right to enjoy the achievements of their society." If by idea you mean a discovery of nature or reality, we agree. Intellectual property however requires material form of that discovered idea. A story has to be written, a machine has to be designed and produced. By forbidding the unauthorized reproduction of the object, the law establishes the right of a mind to the object which it has brought to existence. And the man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave. "High taxation exists for the wealthy in order to prevent the undue centralisation of wealth and power and to provide resources for those who have been oppressed by the capitalist system." I.E. Robbing Paul to pay Peter. We thought you were defending freedom here. "Anyone can hunt but it is regulated to prevent too much damage being done to our environment - the same applies to commercial fishing. Farms are not allowed to grow too large as this will create an unequal distribution of land, depriving others of the right to set up their own farm." All solved if you let people keep their own land. Those that wish to protect game can do so. Farmland should belong to those that farm it. Once again more freedom for everyone. Does one person starve because another person grows wheat? "People do have the right to their own propoerty and if the government needs to take it for any reason they are guaranteed fair compensation and the right to appeal." No shit? wow. Except they can't put a house on it, all housing is nationalized. They can't put a business on it, that's nationalized too. Hell they can't even hunt and fish on it as they wish. So in this great nation where you can have land but not use it (and still possibly lose it), you can become an unsuccessful farmer or you can become a government employee. Wow you're right, these people have freedom flowing out their armpits... <i>"There is nothing stopping our citizens from saving for their retirement although fortunately this is not necessary as everyone is guaranteed a generous pension."</i> Wouldn't it be slightly easier to save for retirement if the government wasn't already swiping from the already sodomized paychecks these people receive? What about the people who didn't earn 'generous' salaries that are guaranteed 'generous pension'. Who is paying for them? Better check the books here because we would be pretty deep in the red before long. And we won't even get into the lack of respect you have for this nation that they all must be so stupid to not even know what to do with their own money... This is shameful behavior. Look, there is nothing close to freedom in your policies. You harness the citizenry like cattle, lock them all in mattress covered playpens and tell them they are free. The day will come when free-thinkers like us will open the doors and show them all the light. Your little puppet show is coming to an end. |
| Date | 06:40:05, January 29, 2006 CET | From | Libertarian Socialists of Endralon | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | "The right to fire is the right of an employer. Employers are victims of your system." The point is that this so-called "right" infringes to a far greater extent on the rights and freedoms of others. For the same reason the right to murder people is also not recognised in New Endralon. "From every mechanic and shopkeeper to writer to artist to inventor? These are your wealthy elite? Do you curse the wealthy elite for creating your planes, your car, your music, your appliances, your home? You should be thanking them for making your life better, and freeing them to do what they do best." The wealthy élite are a small number of unelected individuals who own the means of production and make their money through the labour of the exploited sections of society. To say they know more about a particular industry than the working class is totally ridiculous. "You're right, stealing isn't a freedom of capitalism, but it is under the NE government who loots the pockets of the working citizens to pay for this 'media'." Most tax revenue does not come from the pockets of working citizens and if we are to have a free and democratic media then I can't see a better way of funding it apart from through subsidies. "Hey great, so let's set up 60 million one-man compulsive unions. How is that different than deregulating unions?" It is different from making union membership voluntary as it ensures that emplyers cannot intimidate their workers. "If you're concerned with freedom, what is more free: forcing everyone to go to school based on where they live or letting parents and kids decide the best school available?" As soon as the private sector takes control of education huge inequalities will arise and the poorest people will be left with the worst schools with the fewest resources. Corporations will also be given undue influence over the curriculum, allowing them to teach whatever they want without giving any say to the parents or staff. "You said: "Corprations are totalitarian as they inevitably serve to benefit a small wealthy élite who will use every method at their disposal to maximise profits with absolutely no regard for the welfare of the vast majority of the population." --- And just where do all these profits come from? That's right, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION. How much profits do they expect to make if they disregard everyone. The wealthy elite may control a corporation, but who controls the wealthy elite?... It's the consumer, the little guy, the soverign individual." A rather primitive analysis which has been proven wrong by thousands of years of human history. Corporations and the state they rely on for protection have a huge amount of control over peoples' lives, not least through consumerism (the new "opiate of the masses"), the media and more direct methods of coercion eg. by sacking people or by restricting the rights of Trade Unions. There is almost nothing any individual can do to challenge the power of a huge corporation. "If by idea you mean a discovery of nature or reality, we agree. Intellectual property however requires material form of that discovered idea. A story has to be written, a machine has to be designed and produced. By forbidding the unauthorized reproduction of the object, the law establishes the right of a mind to the object which it has brought to existence. And the man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave." Why should anyone have the right to claim ownership of any invention (which has arisen out of thousands of years of human development) and to deprive others of the right to enjoy its benefits. It doesn't seem to be very democratic if someone can patent a drug then charge extortionate prices for it while thousands of people are dying from a totally preventable ilness. "I.E. Robbing Paul to pay Peter. We thought you were defending freedom here." I certainly am defending freedom - the freedom of working people to enjoy the fruits of their own labour and for this to be redistibuted back to them if it is stolen by the ruling class. "All solved if you let people keep their own land. Those that wish to protect game can do so. Farmland should belong to those that farm it." I agree which is why we can't allow a wealthy individual to buy huge amounts of land and employ others to farm it for them. Instead our land should be owned and run entirely by individuals or by groups of individuals who voluntarily decide to organise themselves as an independent farming cooperative. "No shit? wow. Except they can\'t put a house on it, all housing is nationalized. They can't put a business on it, that\'s nationalized too. Hell they can't even hunt and fish on it as they wish. So in this great nation where you can have land but not use it (and still possibly lose it), you can become an unsuccessful farmer or you can become a government employee. Wow you're right, these people have freedom flowing out their armpits..." Land can be used for farming as I have already mentioned. The right to property (eg. the right to enjoy the fruits of your own labour) is protected. The only thing that isn't is the "right" to exploit others and to deprive them of their own rightfully earned property. "Wouldn't it be slightly easier to save for retirement if the government wasn't already swiping from the already sodomized paychecks these people receive? What about the people who didn't earn 'generous' salaries that are guaranteed 'generous pension'. Who is paying for them? Better check the books here because we would be pretty deep in the red before long. And we won't even get into the lack of respect you have for this nation that they all must be so stupid to not even know what to do with their own money... This is shameful behavior." Not everyone has the same opportunites to save for retirement so it is obviously far fairer and more logical to guarantee everyone a decent income. As the people of New Endralon know there are more than enough sources of revenue to provide all our citizens with a very generous pension and to say otherwise is a scaremongering tactic designed to rob working people of the benefits they deserve. "Look, there is nothing close to freedom in your policies. You harness the citizenry like cattle, lock them all in mattress covered playpens and tell them they are free." You seem to be giving a perfect description of a capitalist society. How exactly do you believe people are free if, as under capitalism, they are kept in the tyranny of wage labour and have no say over the running of their economy? |
| Date | 18:31:40, January 29, 2006 CET | From | League of Objectivists! | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | Now, reread what you have written. Read it again. You may think you are smug giving ambiguous and evasive answers, but you cannot escape the enormous disconnect between what you espouse and the facts of reality. You look at the factory system of the Industrial Revolution and see workers toiling for low wages, and become indignant at the capitalist who pays them. You accuse him of exploitation. But the full truth is that these workers eagerly sought such work because it represented a significant advance in their living standard - and, in more than a few cases, it meant the difference between life and starvation. Do not drop historical context. The impoverished condition of the working class of this era is the direct result of the feudal system. To ignore this is to sweep aside the facts of its genesis. To then accuse capitalism of causing the poverty - while in the very act of eradicating it - is to commit both a historical error and a profound injustice. You wish to seek equality of income. But, contrary to your wishes, the freedom of the capitalist system will always lead to enourmous disparitites of income, because, in fact, individuals are not equal. They are not equal in talent, they are not equl in initiative, they are not equal in capacity to satisfy customer demand. Left free, some individuals will cure cancer, some will make the football Hall of Fame, some will drop out of school, some will work in the local grocery store, some will refuse to work and sponge off the families, friends, and private charities. This unequality cannot be avoided or evaded, or glossed over with the barbaric practice of redistribution of wealth. It will always still be there. But no matter how many facts we present to you, you will refuse to accept reality. The enormous general prosperity of the capitalist countries, the ability of capitalism to inherit widespread poverty and then proceed to create a vast middle class, does not and will not begin to impress you. The principle of economic equality - not universal prosperity - is your moral god. Do you admire the "equal" destitution of Cuba's citizens and repudiate the unequally-shared wealthy of America? To egalitarians, it is morally superior if everybody subsists roughly equally on $1,000 annually and morally inferior if some possess millions while others live on "merely" $15,000 or $20,000 or $30,000. Rational men however prefer to earn $15,000 in a country where others are millionaires to $1,000 in a country where others are equally poor. Don't believe us? Then believe the facts at how many poor immigrants still today vote with their feet to emigrate to America and other capitalist leaning nations, escaping from Marxist regimes and oppressive dictatorships. All of those people risking their lives to float from Cuba to Florida using doors and planks. It breaks our hearts to learn their socialist paradise has such terrible external circumstances and severe poverty to volitionally choose almost certain death for a glimmer of hope for a better world. This is your capitalist selfishness, this is your exploitation. It seems our argument is philosophical, and the point we are trying to make is that human beings have rational faculties and minds of their own - and that destitution does not invalidate their capacities to think or choose or to make informed decisions. Countless millions of starving people have made the rational, life-enhancing decision to emigrate to freer lands. Being poor means that one has no money, not that one has no brains. That most people desire to life well, and recognize political/economic freedom as a necessary condition of satisfying such a desire is preciesely the reason that totalitarian states close their borders. Even the communist despots recognize that rational people by the millions - poor, starving and oppressed - would otherwise choose to flee. And still, despite armed borders and the murder of emigrants, the victims of totalitarianism continue to rationally choose escape and freedom. You who claim to be liberals, humanists, lovers of man. You who should be the protectors and preservers of human life. You should listen to your people instead of enslaving them to your unrealistic ideas. |
| Date | 21:44:41, January 29, 2006 CET | From | Workers' Communist Party of Cobura | To | Debating the Prevention of Capitalist Exploitation |
| Message | WOW! That huge ass debate on the virtues of Capitalism vrs Communism and there is only one Proposal in the damm bill! I just have to say it again, WOW! |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |||
| yes | Total Seats: 183 | |||
| no | Total Seats: 247 | |||
| abstain | Total Seats: 69 |
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