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Bill: The Hidden Workforce
Details
Submitted by[?]: Partisans And Artisans League
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This is an ordinary bill. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: March 2064
Description[?]:
| Prisoners across Beluzia are living the highlife. The occasional chore (with pocket-money) followed by hours of lazing around and free education! This is rediculous, these people some of whom have never done an honest days work in their life, will be introduced to the rigours of manual labour. All able-bodied prisoners will now have to do a full days work like the rest of the Beluzian population. The money they make can go some way to covering the cost of their incarceration. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change Prison policy concerning prisoner labor.
Old value:: Prisoners can do certain jobs in prison, voluntarily, for a small wage.
Current: Prisoners can do certain jobs in prison, voluntarily, for a small wage.
Proposed: Able-bodied prisoners have to work during the day.
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 11:59:55, June 05, 2005 CET | From | Libertarian Communist Party | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | We will never support slavery, irrespective of the circumstances. |
| Date | 15:08:29, June 05, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | Slavery!!! IT is not slavery, its work. Law abiding people work, are you calling them slaves? Would you rather prisoners did nothing all day rather than working and learning skills that they can take in to everyday life. Definition of the word slave, 'slave: a person who is th legal property of another and is forced to obey them'. Indeed under this legislation they will be forced to obey (however not physically) but they are not the property of the state or anyone else and are therefore not slaves. They will be given incentives to work by the adding of bonuses and privileges, not the removal of essentials which are needed to maintain their human rights. For example longer visiting hours etc. |
| Date | 18:39:01, June 05, 2005 CET | From | People's Populist Party - Zogist Mafia | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | Hooray Slavery! Empty the prisons, harvesting organs and performing medical and military experimentiatiions on the wicked before they are sent to the gladitorial dome. Goodly and meritous criminals can of course recieve enslavement for a reasonable period of time, so as to provide restitution for their crimes. |
| Date | 11:37:59, June 06, 2005 CET | From | Libertarian Communist Party | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | No, it's slavery. You are forcing them to work against their will. The proposal states "able-bodied prisoners have to work during the day." This is not voluntary. Nor is there anything within the bill to state that they will not be forced to participate. The system you claim to be proposing whereby "They will be given incentives to work by the adding of bonuses and privileges, not the removal of essentials which are needed to maintain their human rights. For example longer visiting hours etc." is in effect our current one. The system that you are *actually* proposing is one of slavery. Convict labour is fine, as long as the prisoners are given the choice to participate or not. Forcing someone to work against their will is slavery. I have to ask; what next? |
| Date | 12:52:16, June 06, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | This is not what we have right now, what is presently in effect is prisoners carrying out the odd chore. This bill will mean that they are doing a full days work - like as you fail to realise the rest of the population does. It is not slavery as, if they flatey refuse to carry it out they won't have to do it. They will just have a less comfortable sentence. However in no way will their human rights be violated. |
| Date | 12:08:12, June 07, 2005 CET | From | Libertarian Communist Party | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | There is nothing to state in documentation that the option to refuse this is there...throughout the proposal and bill it is treated as a mandatory thing. Furthermore; when did the bill pass stating that all other Beluzian citizens are *forced* to work full-time during the day?!? I missed that one. Perhaps we should crack down upon stay-at-home parents, too...and do something about lazy part-time workers. Work is a voluntary committment. Under the present system, it is to the prisoner's benefit to work voluntarily, just as with normal citizens. If they voluntarily commit themselves to work, it shows that they are making the first steps towards changing their ways. In contrast, forcing prisoners to work in manual labour isn't going to do much to rehabilitate them into productive members of society. At least now, there is some hope for reintegration when they leave prison, having acquired some education and perhaps specialised job skills. If the only work they can do under this system is rigorous manual labour, they will probably sink back into crime. If the real world turns out to be almost as repressive as prison -perhaps in some ways even more difficult, considering the various costs that they do not have to cover in prison- the temptation to return to crime will overcome significant amounts of former convicts. This is dangerous and costly in the long run. And to tackle another point; there are unemployed citizens who have committed no crime who cannot find work. If you are bringing prisoners into jobs that these people would be willing to work for, how is that fair on the law-abiding citizens? |
| Date | 14:10:06, June 07, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | "voluntary committment" their volutary commitment was voluntarily committing the crime. Beluzian citizens are not forced to work I was just stating that they do. Your most shocking defense yet is this one - "If the only work they can do under this system is rigorous manual labour, they will probably sink back into crime". Are we to assume that manual workers in society are nothing better than criminals? So is manual labour a proffesion of no real importance to Beluzian society; a person hasn't got a proper job if they pick berries or shovel soil etc. This statement comming form the "communist" party of Beluzia as well; I think you need to readover some socialist literature and work out what you really stand for. Also you fail to realise that the work these prisoners carry out is done alongside your beloved education. "If they voluntarily commit themselves to work, it shows that they are making the first steps towards changing their ways." No! it shows that they want the money that you pay them for these voluntary activities, which I might add is "[un]fair on the law-abiding citizens" who you refer to. Under the present system the "law-abiding" unemployed might see prison as more comfortable existance than their own. To suggest that the prisoners are taking jobs away from unemployed citizens is also not true because the prisoners work for no pay. Therefore, the jobs that they can do are not open to citizens who need salaries because they simply do not exist. The jobs prisoners will do will be created for them - they will not be put into jobs that already exist. The jobs will be created in work and industry that would be unsustainable if the workers (whoever they might be) had to be payed, such is capitalism. "If the real world turns out to be almost as repressive as prison -perhaps in some ways even more difficult, considering the various costs that they do not have to cover in prison- the temptation to return to crime will overcome significant amounts of former convicts" - it is YOUR present policy that makes life in prison so comfortable (because of the money they get for work) and YOUR harsh communist grip on Beluzian society that makes the outside world such a harsh place to live. Your romanticised notions of communism cloud your view of reality! Communism is the political version of mass jealousy. It has an utenable position in modern politics because it is just a temporary reactionary political ideal to bring down hierarchical dictatorships, which ironically, it always replaces with another. Do you want me to give you examples? Was that a yes? OK here goes, the leaders of the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, Cambodia, North Korea, numerous African nations, Afghanistan, the states of the Warsaw Pact....... Need I continue? Not to mention the murderous regimes of numerous rebel groups like the Shining Path and the Nepalese Maoists. Why do communists continue to believe that maybe their system will work; forgetting the basic principles of human nature, for example, power corrupts (not always but you don't have to look that hard to find examples). |
| Date | 16:13:08, June 07, 2005 CET | From | People's Populist Party - Zogist Mafia | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | Hoorah! |
| Date | 16:22:21, June 07, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | Thank you El Presidente |
| Date | 09:13:23, June 08, 2005 CET | From | none | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | "Your most shocking defense yet is this one - "If the only work they can do under this system is rigorous manual labour, they will probably sink back into crime". Are we to assume that manual workers in society are nothing better than criminals? So is manual labour a proffesion of no real importance to Beluzian society; a person hasn't got a proper job if they pick berries or shovel soil etc. This statement comming form the "communist" party of Beluzia as well; I think you need to readover some socialist literature and work out what you really stand for. Also you fail to realise that the work these prisoners carry out is done alongside your beloved education." CERTAINLY NOT. You have taken my argument out of context. I never claimed that manual labourers were criminals. It is simply common sense however that voluntary work shows which prisoners are more likely to rehabilitate themselves. It is simply common sense that if they had earnt money selling drugs and stealing TVs for a living, and then have no legitimate work choice but to go into manual labour positions, that they will likely go back to their former ways, is it not? Furthermore, now that this proposal has passed, it is probably best to scrap the education program as it is a waste of funds. There is no way to work all day during daylight hours and then be expected to do well in an educational committment. ""If they voluntarily commit themselves to work, it shows that they are making the first steps towards changing their ways." No! it shows that they want the money that you pay them for these voluntary activities, which I might add is "[un]fair on the law-abiding citizens" who you refer to. Under the present system the "law-abiding" unemployed might see prison as more comfortable existance than their own." Yet they are -willing- to *work* for the money. It DOES show a desire to rehabilitate. I seriously doubt, also, that any sane minded person would prefer being locked up in a prison to their normal lives. And if they do out of poverty, I guess none of us are doing a good job of representing the nation , are we? "To suggest that the prisoners are taking jobs away from unemployed citizens is also not true because the prisoners work for no pay. Therefore, the jobs that they can do are not open to citizens who need salaries because they simply do not exist. The jobs prisoners will do will be created for them - they will not be put into jobs that already exist. The jobs will be created in work and industry that would be unsustainable if the workers (whoever they might be) had to be payed, such is capitalism." Ah, so therefore, it is slavery, working in the most unpleasant conditions for no pay whatsoever. Brilliant. ""If the real world turns out to be almost as repressive as prison -perhaps in some ways even more difficult, considering the various costs that they do not have to cover in prison- the temptation to return to crime will overcome significant amounts of former convicts" - it is YOUR present policy that makes life in prison so comfortable (because of the money they get for work) and YOUR harsh communist grip on Beluzian society that makes the outside world such a harsh place to live." Huh? In case you haven't noticed, we don't have much of a grip on society here, and if I did, your accusation is groundless and just a meaningless attack for the sake of raw belligerence. "Your romanticised notions of communism cloud your view of reality! Communism is the political version of mass jealousy. It has an utenable position in modern politics because it is just a temporary reactionary political ideal to bring down hierarchical dictatorships, which ironically, it always replaces with another. Do you want me to give you examples? Was that a yes? OK here goes, the leaders of the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, Cambodia, North Korea, numerous African nations, Afghanistan, the states of the Warsaw Pact....... Need I continue? Not to mention the murderous regimes of numerous rebel groups like the Shining Path and the Nepalese Maoists. Why do communists continue to believe that maybe their system will work;" You have an extremely short sighted image of communism. Communism is NOT A STALINIST DICTATORSHIP. Communism has no govermnent. This party is a transitional democratic socialist party with the goal of achieving a stateless and classless communist society. The societies you have described operate on a state-capitalist basis. They invest resources in projects such as the military which do not help workers, but are geared at increasing the power, influence, and wealth of the ruling class which is in effect a capitalist bourgeoisie. They oppress workers from above in order to benefit themselves. We, the LCP, avocate socialism from below. We encourage workers to involve themselves in politics and achieve socialism from the workplace level upwards. Your belive that communism is a "temporary reactionary political ideal to bring down hierarchical dictatorships" is very incorrect. In fact, in advising me earlier to "readover some socialist literature", It wouldn't be a bad idea if you did so yourself. Communism is an evolutionary process. Communism, or should I say, Socialism -as communism is an evolution of socialism- is a revolutionary force that is geared at overthrowing a heirarchical capitalist society that exploits the masses and alienates them from the product of their labour. We do seek to overthrow a dictatorship, this is true, but that dictatorship is the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. "forgetting the basic principles of human nature, for example, power corrupts (not always but you don't have to look that hard to find examples)." Forgetting the basic principle that we are social creatures, and for thousands of years we lived in a classless society, are you? Corruption is due to the competitive drive that results from capitalism. It is a product of our current society. |
| Date | 09:22:21, June 08, 2005 CET | From | Libertarian Communist Party | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | ^ That was me. |
| Date | 11:46:22, June 08, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | Corruption does not result from the "competitive drive that results from capitalism" it results from people being bad, namely jealousy, deceit and greed. For you to suggest that corruption is a reslt of our "current society" is a horrific denial of all thathas happened in the past; name one communist country that hasn't been ingrained with corruption, you see it is not just money that corrupts but also power which - in a communist society - someone always has. "exploits the masses" - would you rather that everyone suffered in the poverty that all communist countries have created or would you rather that as many people as possible were given a good chance in life to make something of themselves, the remainder of the population being taken care of by the state. The problem with communism is that to make everyone equal you must take everything away from them (power and money). We respect individuality and we like people to be themselves instead of being forced into the grips of a repressive and collectivised (is that a word?) society. You fail to realise that communism to has a class system, a system of power. There will always be those who have more power than another and people will always take advantage of this position. would love to argue more but I've got to go back to school in an hour. I'll add some more when I get back |
| Date | 18:42:01, June 08, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | What is a "stateless and classless society"? The only thing I can think that matches up to that is ..... Heaven?...... |
| Date | 20:46:54, June 08, 2005 CET | From | Libertarian Communist Party | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | My entire point is that by definition, there is *no such thing* as a communist country- by definition a country has a bureaucracy, which, as you recognise, is always going to have more power than the average citizen. Communism is direct democracy on the workplace level. " Corruption does not result from the "competitive drive that results from capitalism" it results from people being bad, namely jealousy, deceit and greed. For you to suggest that corruption is a reslt of our "current society" is a horrific denial of all thathas happened in the past; name one communist country that hasn't been ingrained with corruption, you see it is not just money that corrupts but also power which - in a communist society - someone always has." Okay, Anarchist Spain. There you go. "exploits the masses" - would you rather that everyone suffered in the poverty that all communist countries have created" While I do not agree with the structure of any of these nations, all of these countries were poor to begin with. The poverty was not created, it was already there. "We respect individuality and we like people to be themselves instead of being forced into the grips of a repressive and collectivised (is that a word?) society" Ah, but capitalism is not individualistic. This is a common misconception- in reality, capitalism, at least for the majority of people, is anything *but* individualistic. Ask yourself; when you work to produce a good or service, what societal recognition is there that you produced it? What attachment do you have to the fruit of your labour? None, because it naturally belongs to somebody else. This is as anti-individualistic as it comes. The only way you can be an individual is by finding the capital to establish your own business...and even then, not really. You're still a cog in the capitalist machine. The way socialism offers to overcome this is by empowering workers with the recognition that they *are* in fact individuals, and as such, deserve an equal share of power and wealth in society. Collectivism does not necessarily mean elimination of the individual. Individuals can work together for the betterment of society as a whole. There won't be those with more power than another; each person is but one human and nothing more. Nobody can own a human, and nobody can own another humans labour. In this system, people can truly be themselves and express themselves in whichever way they like. "What is a "stateless and classless society"? The only thing I can think that matches up to that is ..... Heaven?......" It's not at all unfeasible, particularly with modern technology. |
| Date | 22:01:38, June 08, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | You just destroyed you argument - "ANARCHIST Spain" it was the communists who pushed the Anarchists out of power, its was they who destroyed the POUM and murdered many of its members just to gain politcal control. The Valencia (Communist) government was the one that destroyed democracy and limited the power of the trade unions - the very people responsible for fighting back at the start. "While I do not agree with the structure of any of these nations, all of these countries were poor to begin with. The poverty was not created, it was already there." - So you are admitting that the communism hasn't worked whereas there are many capitalist countries where the vast majority of people live a comfortable existance and yes there are some living in poverty but this is the case in EVERY society. I understand that you might believe that your form of communism might work but there hasn't been a single example in history that has. How can you say that the money you make "naturally belongs to somebody else" because YOU make money, it is put in YOUR hand and it is YOURS. When is it someone else? Whereas with communism the little money you make is given to you by the state which controls what you spend it on and all the rest is owned by the state. You cannot make anything of your life and therefore it does not encourage productivity or iginuity or even advancement in technology. Productivity is only increased in communist countries when the workers have guns to the back of their head (slight exaggeration i konw but hah that politics for you!). "It's not at all unfeasible, particularly with modern technology." - is the state going to be replaced by droids - highly doubtful. |
| Date | 22:04:10, June 08, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | By the way we should be quite proud of this. You've argued a good point (although I think it's wrong, obviously, and probably vis-versa). Politics in action! |
| Date | 22:05:23, June 08, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | Why do you have so few seats in the parliament? Public opinion tends to be on your side..... |
| Date | 22:05:52, June 08, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | And you introduce enough bills.... |
| Date | 15:42:16, June 09, 2005 CET | From | Libertarian Communist Party | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | No, anarchists are communists- but not Marxists. You don't need to be a marxist to be a communist. Furthermore, those communists that fought against the anarchists were mostly Stalinists...and some misguided Trotskyists. I have no respect for either. "While I do not agree with the structure of any of these nations, all of these countries were poor to begin with. The poverty was not created, it was already there." - So you are admitting that the communism hasn't worked whereas there are many capitalist countries where the vast majority of people live a comfortable existance and yes there are some living in poverty but this is the case in EVERY society." There aren't many. You can limit the wealthy countries to a fraction of the worlds population. Those third-world countries that did manage to industrialise are those that were necessary as a bulwark against communism - South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore. It would seem that for the other poverty stricken nations, capitalism hasn't worked either. "How can you say that the money you make "naturally belongs to somebody else" because YOU make money, it is put in YOUR hand and it is YOURS. When is it someone else? Whereas with communism the little money you make is given to you by the state which controls what you spend it on and all the rest is owned by the state. You cannot make anything of your life and therefore it does not encourage productivity or iginuity or even advancement in technology. Productivity is only increased in communist countries when the workers have guns to the back of their head (slight exaggeration i konw but hah that politics for you!)." You earning money because you have sold your labour to someone else- your work is not your own, and you are alienated from the production process. You as a human input in the system are reduced to a mere name or number. It need not be like this. Your labour can directly benefit many people instead of just one, and society can recognise you as an individual. My other point though is that for a country to be communist it needs to eliminate any financial system. This is a product of capitalism. Communal or State Capitalism has proven rather inefficient, as witnessed in the USSR and Mao's China...though there were some successes (but at great cost, obviously.). ""It's not at all unfeasible, particularly with modern technology." - is the state going to be replaced by droids - highly doubtful." Not to that extreme. We have automated industry now. Machines that build cars or other robots aren't typically interested in profit and increasing productivity can be easily achieved. "By the way we should be quite proud of this. You've argued a good point (although I think it's wrong, obviously, and probably vis-versa). Politics in action!" Indeed :) And I have no idea. I went from being President to the smallest party overnight, and I seem to be stuck. I'd introduce more bills if it weren't for the fact that they'd be shot down by impossible odds :p |
| Date | 16:25:12, June 10, 2005 CET | From | Partisans And Artisans League | To | Debating the The Hidden Workforce |
| Message | The POUM were the Trotskyist party and didn't fight the anarchists, an also anarchists are not always communists and were different in the Spanish Civil War. |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||||
| yes |
Total Seats: 223 | ||||
| no | Total Seats: 28 | ||||
| abstain | Total Seats: 49 |
| Random fact: You can view helpful ideological statistics about the regions in your nation on the region pages. You can also view detailed political opinions and the importance of them there as well. |
| Random quote: "We're the first society in history with the option of living in a world without poverty. The fact poverty still exist says more about our political leaders than I can." - Clint Borgen |