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Bill: Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber
Details
Submitted by[?]: Clara Aurora - COSIRA
Status[?]: passed
Votes: This bill is a resolution. It requires more yes votes than no votes. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: January 4859
Description[?]:
| In Marea-Civis Sinistram would like to launch the debate over the creation of a second chamber in our parliamentary system, that would be in charge of controlling the regional governments, and would give a better representation overall of the election results by constituency (instead of, for example, if one party gets 100 seats from a single region and becomes the biggest party just because of that region). Seats would be asssigned as follows: 𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗿𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺: • 85 regional seats, 17 from each • 25 seats nationwide • Former Praetors and Consuls 𝗥𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝘀𝗲𝗮𝘁𝘀: For each region, 10 seats would go to the most voted party, 5 to the second, and 2 to the third. 𝗡𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝘀𝗲𝗮𝘁𝘀: 25 seats to be given (using the D'Hont method, here: http://icon.cat/util/elections) For the last election results, this would create the second chamber as follows: IMCS: 45 seats (37 regional + 9 national) RP: 28 seats (22 regional + 6 national) FR: 21 seats (17 regional + 4 national) FI: 10 seats (6 regional + 4 national) PFO: 4 seats (2 regional + 2 national) •••••Powers: ••••• • Appointment of members of the Supreme Court •Suspension of Regional Governments if Constitution is broken (2/3 of votes) •Disciplining Praetors •Advisor of the Consul •Simple majority to withdraw from Treaties and declaring war. •Representation of regions. The Chamber will be leaded by the Princeps Comitia, member of the most voted party in this chamber (not in the Senate). Parus Adrada, Senatrix |
Proposals
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 01:27:57, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Novus Partis Rexisti | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | What would you call this new chamber, Senator Adrada? Additionally, you mention, with the regional seats, that each of the top 3 parties in that election would get seats. I and my party strongly disagree with this. My party could perhaps be persuaded if representation in this chamber would be proportional to voted received. Augustus Scipio Longidium Senator |
| Date | 01:32:06, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Novus Partis Rexisti | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | What would the powers of this second chamber be in relation to the Senate? Augustus Scipio Longidium Senator |
| Date | 06:04:16, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Factio Renatus Seluciana | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | Would this mean the Praetors no longer serve a purpose? |
| Date | 08:39:24, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | Praetors would still rule with their regional chamber composition, this would be like the national representation of the regions, that would deal with territorial issues mainly, and we are looking for other proposals to be given |
| Date | 08:40:44, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | Mr. Scipio: proportional representation is given by the 25 national seats, while the regional seats serves as a “wall” to equilibrate regional results |
| Date | 09:59:15, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: The idea is interesting, although I'm kinda concerned it would become a bit too complicated. That depends of course on what the powers of the upper house will be. If it's largely ceremonial then it should be fine even if a little complicated. But in order to make RPing it simpler, how about we go a bit more Roman about it and make all former Praetors, Ministers, Heads of State, and Heads of Government automatically become members? And to make RPing all those characters easier we can have an elected RP position, like a "Censor", authorized to RP the characters (like the names of those that weren't filled in, and the lifespan of the characters). Their specific actions (like voting "yes" or "no") would still belong to the players that created them. I dunno, just a thought. I am mostly curious what you're proposing the upper house's powers to be. |
| Date | 13:16:00, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: yes, mainly ceremonial sounds fine, although giving it some powers regarding control to regions, such as suspending regional governments if they break the Constitution (by 2/3 votes or something like that), giving it the power to appoint the Supreme Court judges, and the chamber responsible of disciplining Praetors. It can also serve as advisor to the Consul (the Caesar is "advised" by the Senate). Instead, we can make all former Praetors and Consuls automatically members of it (not Ministers and such because it may be a little mess) |
| Date | 13:53:16, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: Fair enough. We could also give the chamber some responsibilities for foreign affairs, like requiring its consent before joining or withdrawing from a treaty or declaring war. |
| Date | 13:59:01, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: Nice, any other suggestions? I'll add the powers right now. Also, any suggestions about the name? |
| Date | 14:36:31, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: Well the most appropriate name would actually be "Senate" (or Senatus), but that would mean we'd have to rename the current legislative. I wouldn't mind if we did that and renamed the legislative as "Comitia Tributa (Tribal Assembly)" or something like that. Can't think of any other powers atm, but I think with these it should be interesting. The only remaining concern is that not all players may actively participate, but those we can just count as abstentions, I think. |
| Date | 15:40:48, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: Oh I know, the upper house could also have the power to declare a state of emergency in exceptional circumstances. |
| Date | 16:06:37, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: I think the state of emergency shall be declared by the Senate, as representative of the general nation, although...what do you mean by exceptional circumstances? |
| Date | 23:18:23, May 22, 2018 CET | From | Novus Partis Rexisti | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: I like the Senate the way it is. Without clearly defined powers, I don't really think this new chamber is necessary. |
| Date | 09:59:21, May 23, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: I was thinking of something like the Senatus Consultum Ultimum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senatus_consultum_ultimum Though the main legislative could just as well pass something like that. |
| Date | 13:36:39, May 23, 2018 CET | From | Novus Partis Rexisti | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: Hmmm.... That could work, I guess. |
| Date | 16:54:57, May 25, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | After last results, the composition would be as follows: RP: 45 seats (35+10) IMCS: 40 seats (32+8) FR: 18 seats (14+4) FI: 6 seats (4+2) PFO: 1 seat (0+1) |
| Date | 19:23:50, May 25, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: I just had an idea, don't know how workable it is but it could be interesting. Instead of making this the House representing the regions, why not implement a Citizens' Assembly elected randomly from the larger population? Here's some detail on citizens' assemblies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_assembly So basically we could have a semi-deliberative body chosen by lot from the larger population, with some quotas in place to make sure it is representative (e.g. one man and one woman from each electoral district). Although sortition is more Greek than Roman, I think it could make some sense. And as for function, every nation's in-game newspaper has these system-generated opinion polls on various topics (this is the most recent one in Selucia: http://classic.particracy.net/viewnews.php?newsid=618127&nation=35). We could make these random opinion polls official by considering them the result of the Citizens' Assembly deliberations. Once we have a system-generated opinion poll, we could then require that the Senate vote on the Assembly's proposal, but also allowing every party to vote however they want. I don't think the Assembly's size really matters that much, we can just establish a random number and then use the opinion poll percentages to determine how many people voted for each proposal. So how does this sound? |
| Date | 00:23:09, May 26, 2018 CET | From | Factio Renatus Seluciana | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: That sounds interesting. Who would be the one making the bills? |
| Date | 15:04:22, May 26, 2018 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: Seems a bit of a mess to me, tbh, but it can be talked |
| Date | 12:06:53, May 27, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: Hmm, I think it would be ok to require any willing party to propose a bill reflecting the Assembly's decision, but they could be allowed to vote against it as well. I think this would actually be a bit simpler than doing some math determining how many seats each party has, since we already have system-generated opinion polls. I dunno, it's just a thought. What does everyone else think of this Citizens' Assembly idea? |
| Date | 00:25:43, May 28, 2018 CET | From | Novus Partis Rexisti | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: I don't really think this is necessary, the unicameral Senate works perfectly fine. As the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." |
| Date | 09:51:08, May 29, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: Well it's not something that's "necessary", it's something that's potentially fun. Just like how we have the Supreme Court with all the RP it produces. It's not necessary, but it is useful. The reason I prefer a Citizens' Assembly idea over a calculated and partisan Upper House is that with my proposal the RPd institution can just run in the background, as it were, with little additional action required from anyone (apart from having to propose a specific bill once every 1-2 years, which I don't think is too intrusive). With BDS's system we'd not only have to do the math, but people will also have to vote "yay" or "nay" outside the core game system, which, as we saw with the Majatran Alliance referendum, not everyone is eager to do. But I wouldn't mind the mathy system if voting in it would be very rare and just be used to enhance RP. |
| Date | 12:57:11, May 31, 2018 CET | From | Novus Partis Rexisti | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: That could work, I guess. |
| Date | 15:45:19, June 12, 2018 CET | From | Factio Republicana Socialistica | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: So are we good with creating an RP law establishing this? |
| Date | 01:50:02, June 13, 2018 CET | From | Novus Partis Rexisti | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: I don't really think we should do this. |
| Date | 17:33:57, December 08, 2020 CET | From | Clara Aurora - COSIRA | To | Debating the Comitia Tributa- Upper Chamber |
| Message | OOC: To archive |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | |
| yes |
Total Seats: 373 | |
| no | Total Seats: 0 | |
| abstain | Total Seats: 377 |
| Random fact: Periodically, it is a good idea to go through your nation's Treaties and arrange to withdraw from any that are unwanted. |
| Random quote: "I don’t have facts to back this up." - Herman Cain |