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Bill: Flag Debate, May 4334
Details
Submitted by[?]: Partia e Reformës (PR/KM/RP)
Status[?]: defeated
Votes: This bill asks for an amendement to the Constitution. It will require two-thirds of the legislature to vote in favor. This bill will not pass any sooner than the deadline.
Voting deadline: January 4337
Description[?]:
| The Reform Party, noting how untraditional our current flag is moves to change the flag of the Great Kalopian Republic. We urge Assembly Members to look at flags throughout Kalopia's history. Whilst we support an original flag, we also believe it must reflect our culture. http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Kalopia#History We propose that there should be a referendum upon which voters decide amongst a preselected group of flags, which should be the next flag of Kalopia. The winner of that vote would then face a second referendum against the current flag. OOC: the current flag is a real life Greek one, which isn't technically allowed Should this pass, then the referendums would be based upon the New Zealand Flag Referendums (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_flag_referendums,_2015%E2%80%9316) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OOC: Update: The flag Gozo submitted was so good I don't think there is much point in a referendum. I just got rid of the green in the flag, so it is good to go. |
Proposals
Article 1
Proposal[?] to change The national flag (URL).
Old value:: https://orig00.deviantart.net/81b2/f/2015/229/2/4/flag_of_the_byzantine_kingdom_of_greece_by_ramones1986-d7lnwqb.png
Current: https://i.imgur.com/c2DU6ef.png
Proposed: https://i.imgur.com/S0uC1n6.png
Debate
These messages have been posted to debate on this bill:
| Date | 23:54:32, January 17, 2018 CET | From | Partia ultra nacionaliste e Kalopisë | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | We believe we are need in a flag change. |
| Date | 15:47:58, January 18, 2018 CET | From | Vatan Partisi | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | We support a return to either this (http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Kalopia?file=Flag_of_Kalopia_after_4000.png#History), or this (http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Kalopia?file=Mehmet_Pasha_Flag.png#History). We trust that any change will happen only if there is actually a consensus among all parties. |
| Date | 23:56:58, January 18, 2018 CET | From | Partia e Reformës (PR/KM/RP) | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | We support a referendum. We want there to be a consensus amongst the people, rather amongst the parties - which, let us face it, is rather unlikely. In regards to the flags offered, we believe that the blue coloured flags better suit Kalopia, and are a better symbol of our past. The red colour is more from foreign rule than anything else, and that would be a poor representation of Kalopia. However, we maintain we need a new flag based upon old flags. Whilst this is just brainstorming, here is an idea sketched up from a campaigner from the Reform Party: https://i.imgur.com/x8lzHtW.png This flag implements the blue and white that is synonymous with not only the current flag, and this current Republic, but also from throughout Kalopian history - mainly when it has been under either Kalopian or Wantuni rule - who are of course the two original inhabitants of Kalopia. Further the laurel reef has been a part of Kalopian flags for years. OOC: See this link to see how an in game referendum would work. http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7389#p117155 |
| Date | 20:47:43, January 19, 2018 CET | From | Vatan Partisi | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | OOC: No, just please no "free flag maker" stuff. Also keep in mind that the red that has been used before is not "foreign". If you by foreign mean "Turjak", let me remind you that this country was 40-50% Turjak only a few hundred years ago, long before you were even here -- I don't know who allowed that number to drop to 8%, since that's a far steeper drop than what is ordinarily allowed. Regardless, that unrealistic demographic change should not mean that we scrap all symbolism from that centuries-long, and deeply important, era. |
| Date | 22:02:23, January 19, 2018 CET | From | Partia e Reformës (PR/KM/RP) | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | OOC: I don't think OOC was particularly necessary, but if we are going to argue about the history of Kalopia I would refer you to the actual history of Kalopia, and how this 40-50% figure is actually the anomaly to the rule. Kalopia was created in Particracy as a replacement of RL Greece, and the South Eastern European nations of Albania and Bosnia. Naturally these have had both vast Turkish and Arabic influence from the Ottoman Empire, and other Arabic conquests into Europe throughout history. This is recognised in Particracy. However, Greece is, well, still a Greek nation, and not Turkish. The same applies in Particracy - Kalopia is per the Cultural Protocol and per all the hard work that hundreds of players have done in role playing Kalopia - where Kalopia is Kalopian, not Turjak. 8% is perhaps a little small, I will grant you that (though I am sure some of the Reform Party's views have made some Turjaks move to Jakania). However, unrealistic demographic change is not an argument that you can use here. I can give you so much evidence that would back up my point, but I don't want to get into an OOC argument with you. All I would say is that give the forums and the wiki a bit of a look through, and all the information you need is there. I would encourage you to get involved in the forums as it increases the enjoyment of Particracy for all players. Obviously you don't have to, but if you find the time, it would certainly be interesting to get the opposing viewpoint on there since the only viewpoint players from other countries hear is the Reform Party's position. That makes it easier for my IG party. Further, my party is not particularly pro-Turjak is it? Of course the IC Reform Party is going to not want Turjak influence in the flag. It comes from the position that Turjaks are not native to the country and therefore shouldn't influence Kalopian culture. Why on earth would they want any Turjak symbolism or the colour red in the flag? That's sort of the point. To add to that, a few hundred years is over a year in real life terms. The Turjak minority could have easily shrunk over that time. The cultural protocol has simply been adjusted over the months you haven't been here. Sure I haven't been in Kalopia overtly long - I accept that - but I can assure you that I didn't just hop in and decide: you know what let's mess up Kalopia's culture for the fun of it. I had actually looked at all the stuff regarding the Dictator Atatürcak before I joined the country. Regarding the "free flag stuff," not all of us have the time to meticulously design a flag. Fundamentally none of Kalopia's flags have been that well designed if I'm honest. If you want a flag of proper quality then design one yourself and suggest that as a viable option. If you don't want to design a flag yourself then please don't complain. I said I was IC brainstorming, I didn't expect the Homeland Party to be particularly happy with my stance (most evident when I said "We want there to be a consensus amongst the people, rather amongst the parties - which, let us face it, is rather unlikely"), however, I don't believe that a flag debate needs to spiral into OOC bickering. I don't want this to descend into an OOC argument so I'm going to stop myself there. If you want to Turjakise a Kalopian nation then check up the game rules and attempt to turn Kalopia into a culturally open nation (Rule 15: http://forum.particracy.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6363). I will resist it, but if you can get the support for it I cannot stop you. It would be a shame but hey. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On a slightly related point, I was thinking about writing up a sort of a fact book on Kalopia for new players. I have a few ideas about the minorities and their important role in Kalopian politics. Naturally you guys giving any extra information would be great. Right now I'm sort of framing the Siphinans as sort of over-represented in the elite (lots of players use Albanian names for their parties even though they have a small percentage of the population - I think this is a natural way of providing RP justification to that). That would give something for the Homeland Party to say. Turjak influence has played a large role in Kalopian politics so that can be explained by social oppression by the Kalopian majority or something - probably similar to the Majatrans - which is what the Homeland Party claim is happening anyway pretty much - unless I have been completely misinterpreting you over the last few IG years. |
| Date | 22:07:22, January 19, 2018 CET | From | Partia e Reformës (PR/KM/RP) | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | OOC: And sorry for the long OOC post; it kinda all splurged out ;). Don't want to seem overly aggressive, but I just think that if we want this debate (and I'm cool with that by the way - countries change all the time, Kalopia no exception), then we should be doing it elsewhere. |
| Date | 22:18:10, January 19, 2018 CET | From | Partia e Reformës (PR/KM/RP) | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | The Reform Party were scanning over past bills and found this was a former flag of Kalopia. We thought it looked interesting, so we would display it to the House. Miralem Kusturica Prime Minister of Kalopia http://i.imgur.com/7IbtiXr.png |
| Date | 22:36:35, January 19, 2018 CET | From | Partia e Reformës (PR/KM/RP) | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | OOC: I promise I'll shut up after this. I was just looking through the old bills after being interested by your 40-50% figure of Turjak population. I found that the most up to date Cultural Protocols before you formed was this: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=464474 which actually had the Turjak population at just 5%. I then looked at the next CPs passed. You yourself proposed this one: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill.php?billid=486317, however it appeared that it had never been voted upon (it had to be archived after you left Kalopia for the first time, and I could not find evidence of it ever being put to the vote and passing), and that it was actually never officially accepted by Moderation (please do correct me if I'm wrong). This technically makes it void (nothing against you - just in accordance with the game rules) and hence the CP following provides a more accurate description of our nation. I then checked to see what the next CP introduced was like. Discarding a very strange one about a majority Luthori (English) country, I found that the next CP to physically pass and gain moderation's approval is the very one we have today. You have certainly raised an important issue. I think that we need to create a new CP and we should be able to do so - in fact, I'll draft one up as soon as I have finished writing this. But I don't think (again please do provide me proof to the contrary) that Kalopia has that much of a Turjak population. |
| Date | 00:18:41, January 20, 2018 CET | From | Vatan Partisi | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | OOC: Did not read that long message (sorry!), but I'm sure I know where you stand already. That being said, your second flag proposal looks infinitely better. Maybe if we put the traditional Kalopian crescent-cross symbol in the circle in the middle, instead of the Lion? I don't think it currently looks sufficiently Mediterranean, which is how I imagine this country, and the crescent-cross could help with that. The most up-to-date protocols before I formed this party were also made by me (I control all 'Gozo' and 'chp' accounts, with 'CHP' being short for a *Turkish* political party, by the way ;P). And it seems you are right. If I recall correctly, Kalopia may have been culturally void for some time after the cultural era reset a few months/years ago, thus I filled the culturally empty Kalopia with a new mix of Turjak and Kalopian, replacing the former Wantuni and Kalopian. But it seems I left the country before even trying to pass them? I frankly can't remember. Regardless, that also explains why the number was reverted back to the much smaller, current one, which has confused me a lot ever since I first returned. Regardless, I agree that it's time for an update. I'll leave a comment on your proposal. :D |
| Date | 00:40:57, January 20, 2018 CET | From | Vatan Partisi | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | OOC: I'm talking about something like this, just excluding the crude green border around the crescent-cross, which stems from my clearly less than perfect MS paint skills: https://imgur.com/PInmI7e |
| Date | 00:51:01, January 20, 2018 CET | From | Partia e Reformës (PR/KM/RP) | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | OOC: I like. |
| Date | 03:40:08, January 20, 2018 CET | From | Vatan Partisi | To | Debating the Flag Debate, May 4334 |
| Message | OOC: I just read your longer text, and I just have to say that none of the things I say in OOC are meant as personal attacks. I've been told I can be overly crass in the way I phrase things, though that is almost never the intention! That includes the free flag maker comment, in this case, which it seems you (justifiably) took a bit personally. About the forums, it's more or less been a policy of mine for several years to stay away from them; I have neither enough time nor creativity to be of much use there. And about the Turjakification of Kalopia -- that is not something I am actually trying to achieve OOC. The Homeland Party is essentially supposed to be a cult-like organization glorifying the past Turjak juntas and autocracies. Like I mentioned in the cultural protocols thread a few minutes ago, I think 50% is a good minimum for the ethnic Kalopian population, even if I'd like a slightly larger Turjak minority. Even though there is a clear cultural struggle right now, both IC and (to a much lesser degree) OOC, I feel I should let you know that I'm not going to try and erase the Kalopian nature of the country, or erode its ethnic majority. I know how annoying it is to have built a system and culture, and then have it all undone by someone else. It's been done several times to me in the past. You don't have to worry about that with me. ^^ |
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Voting
| Vote | Seats | ||
| yes |
Total Seats: 192 | ||
| no | Total Seats: 0 | ||
| abstain | Total Seats: 103 |
| Random fact: RP laws follow the same passing rules as in-game variable laws. Laws that are not of a constitutional nature require a simple majority "Yes" vote from active parties currently holding seats. Laws that are of a constitutional nature require a 2/3 majority "Yes" vote from active parties currently holding seats. RP laws may be abolished a simple majority vote this applies to ANY RP law. |
| Random quote: "I am a conservative to preserve all that is good in our constitution, a radical to remove all that is bad. I seek to preserve property and to respect order, and I equally decry the appeal to the passions of the many or the prejudices of the few." - Benjamin Disraeli |